Discussion Notes - Week 13 - Alchemy

Alchemy Discussion- 4.19.01

Alchemy can have scientific motivations as well as magical.

--Scientific: CAn measure it, test it (as opposed to testing a soul). The aim of the procedure may be what makes it science. Can the ingredients in a spell make a difference? What is an acceptable scientific ingredient?

--Scientific ingredients are non-complicated.

--Scientific research: trying new experiments based upon the results of previous ones. The goal is to learn more, to make better ways with predicted outcomes.

--Magic uses a different system. But still has a "practical" system.

--The distinction may be drawn by the ability to explain how something works.

--Why is this distinction between magic and science so important? It may make a difference in how it is looked upon by modern scholars.

--By making these labels we are attempting to define things as either magic or science. It's very important to consider what the ancient people thought of what they were performing. Need to look at their perspective. Etic vs Emic approaches.

--Zosimus makes distinctions between what is acceptable and what is not.

--Consistancy and the ability to recreate procedures makes something scientific. It's valid. Magic is not very empirically repeatable. Science, however, should be.

--Dyes can be considered science as well as "doubling".

--The goal of alchemy is not just an empirical goal. The performers were seeking a spiritual state, kind of on a metaphysical level.

--This brings us back again to the goal and purposes of these procedures. What ends were they trying to reach? Do these ends allow us to define?

--What about a search for understanding... Can this define science? They are trying to find out how something works. Back again to the "end" or "purpose" of the procedure.

--Applied vs Theoretical Science. Theoretical may lean more towards religion than applied does.

--Important to note that we are not reading any scientific documents in this course. Everything being said is based upon personal experiences and prejudices. It's hard to discuss and define something such as science when we haven't looked at these sources.

--Maybe what makes alchemy magical is that they impose god and the heavens. The gods are affecting the outcome. A reaction occurs beyond the empirically observable. the focus is on this end. this observation.

--Magic has to do with divine.

--Science needs measurable proof to validate. Needs empiracle evidence. Needs confirmation.

--Must distinguish ends from procedures.

--But what did the people performing the alchemy catagorize what they were doing? What distinctions were drawn?

--Zosimus defines "slaves of fate" as being unacceptable. He is a philosopher, though, and his work is different from them. Their souls are subject to fate and are bound to the worldly concerns. This sounds like theurgy. Zosimus as a philosopher is above all of that. He is spiritually involved.

--In section two the ones bound by fate should be following the handbook. They get a good result once out of good favor. But they continue to neglect method and procedures. They take shortcuts and get trapped by fate. They don't truly understand the workings of the universe.

--Soulution: Follow procedures. Understand the stuff behind the ritual.
Become philosopher.

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Alchemy

-Talked about the mythical connection associated with Alchemy.

-Alchemy goes above the normal workings of matter.

-Is there a connection spiritually?

-Sounds like a religious experience that happened from above and below.

-Zosimos on the Letter Omega

-In order to get Alchemy right one needs to a certain person.

-Talked about being a slave of faith.

-Doesn't mean that they do exactly what is appointed.

-For Zosimos it means that they are just living for the moment; they do

whatever happens to come by at that particular moment. They do not follow a

system and know God.

-They are also subjected to the whims of faith; and at the mercy of

chance.

-Faith

-comes from the Greek word tyche meaning, chance or a random

occurence.

-He also makes a connection with the practical procedures and spiritual

process, above and below.

-Manipulating materials have to do with cosmic sympathy where one can

influence the higher realm.

-Zosimos has a story on the creation of human beings where primitive man

was tricked into being "Adam"

-He is placed into a body, man is bound up into a physical body.

Because of this alchemy is used or it works to dissolve these physical bonds. It

releases the spiritual or pnuema (spirit).

-Recipes of Maria

-Used is theion which is the word for sulphur also meaning divine.

-has steps for purification that gives a symbolic motion.

-Alchemists just don't have the single purpose for making gold.

-Alchemists have to take little steps towards the ultimate goal. Every

procedure is important. One procedure is movement towards understanding the whole.

-Zosimos thinks that one has to follow the method and read the right things.

-Calls people like him philosophers. He also makes a distintion between

what he does and what those who practice magic does.

-Is alchemy scientific? And what makes it scientific? And what separates it from

the magic and the spells used in the PGM?

Alchemy

-instructions (in packet) look scientific

-formuleic processes--purify metal to purify soul

-not quite scientific--what makes science?

-testable; empiracal result (measure and test against something else)

-aim is science

-using powders, tinctures like modern sciences vs. "eye of newt", etc.

-why more scientific?

-base material--dealing with something in a more pure form--deals

with basic structures

-aim is to create something different rather than process of

prediction and research based on previous knowledge

-proven method

-both science and alchemy have theory that explains results

-not random ideas--have a system

-may not know why it works; but even today we do many things we

don't have ability to fully understand, yet depend on result

-many procedures have specific ends, can be repeatable

-weren't looking for empirical result but something higher, at

spiritual/metaphysical level

-different motivation

-science because they were searching for understanding

-both science and magic trying to understand something, looking for the way

the process works

-spiritual end vs. practical end

-distinction of ends

-science divided: applied vs. theoretical (more like a religion)

-degree of mundane and exotic

-alchemy: put one substance with another substance and get reaction but

reaction occurs beyond the empirically observable

-similar to math constructs that are based on certain unempirically

observable premises

-empiricle confimation important to alchemists because they indicate

changes taking place that can't be observed

-distinguishing ends from procedures

-why is the question of what science is important?

-answer deals with the way works are treated or not treated

-magic, "pseudo-science" gets neglected by putting into categories

-also discover what we associate with labels (and also what they thought)

-Zosimus

-draws lines, discusses people who are doing the "wrong" kind of magic

-people didn't believe in handbooks--not philosophers, "slaves to fate"

-subject to fate and bound down by material concerns; philosopher

above that--sounds like religion, theurgy--get above

-get good result once, think they've done it right, then neglect procedure

-Zosimus thought procedure was all important (doing the right thing

at the right time); do things in accordance with rational order of the universe

-"scientific method"?

-good stuff, philosophy; bad stuff, magic--emic label reveals attitude

and distinction