Discussion Notes - Week 15 - Definitions and Theory

Magic 212 Discussion Notes -5/4/01

Thursday 3-4

Religion is more social and magic is more individiual.

However, for practitioners, "magic" is really their religion (or can be).

Today, the field of Anthropology is trying to create more fluid boundaries

between categories such as "magic", "religion", and "science".

In Versnel, we see stricter dichotomies at work.

We have to work with dichotomies because they exist, but we should always

be wary about which dichotomies we choose to use. Always watch who is

drawing the lines and where they are being drawn.

Theurgy-Spiritual practice?

Plotinus-No

Zosmimus-Yes

How to define Magic?

Well, there's the question of...

--the intention

--the methods that are used

--the attitude of the practitioner

Meeting with the Supreme God

--Occurs in both the Mithras Liturgy and the 8th book of Moses

*Magician meets with God to get something

--But WHY???

*spiritual enlightenment or to find a cow?

*Does the intent make a difference?*

The category of "what" becomes less important and the "why, how and

who" become more so.

Everyone has different attitudes towards these questions.

The Anastasi Collection:

-Spans a whole range of "spells"

-Who put them all together and why?

-Maybe he didn't know any better

-Maybe so but it all depends on the attitude of the collector

So, we can't always take an etic viewpoint. We can't fully understand

until we take an emic/insider's perspective into consideration.

What is Magic? How do we define it? Let us use Mithras Liturgy as an

example.

ML is not solitary. Trip to the heavens can be taken by more than one

person. the information gained is used to benefit all of society.

ML doesn't harm anyone unlike the love spells.

Distinctions in intent of spells:

harm, love, profit, information

ML is more complicated than other spells. Requires the use of a teacher

or mentor. Part of a mystery (or similar kind of) cult? (use of special

knowledge; initiation rites)

How does the ML work as compared to other spells?

How does the practitioner think it works??

interactions with divine beings/certain forces.

--is there a difference? is this difference important?

is the relationship coersive or submissive?

PGM I 262-347

-intent: ask Apollo for "more magical information"

(this is one of six times that "magic" is specifically mentioned in the

PGM-the other times are in PGM IV--other terms such as agoge, divination,

dream oracle are used, but 'magic' is very rare)

For Apuleius, what was and was not magic was very important.

The diviner in PGM I accepts and names what he is doing as "magic".

Perhaps if his social context were changed his attitude would be

different.

PGM I is not coercive, more pleading. Mostly submissive.

-Action: how does the practitioner expect to succeed? is the spell

dependent on his actions? on the actions of the gods?

*dependent on BOTH*

-Social/Moral evaluation: Will the practitioner be ashamed? Is anyone

going to persecute or protest?

Well, there is gain involved, it's not fair--some people might be upset.

Also, there is the danger of contagion.

"So you say you only to good magic do you...? We'll see about that!"

----------------------------------------------

Thursday 2-3

Defining Magic:

- Social evaluations are the easiest definition to return to. This Social

Evaluation is not the same as legal evaluation. The Social Evaluations are

usually based on misunderstandings (i.e, Apuleius and Salem Witch Trials).

These misuderstandings stem from language barriers, and a fear of anything

that is different.

* They were guilty of being 'wierd'.

* they undermined the social order and were accused of having an

intent to harm.

- Therefore Magic grew to have a negative cannotation

What is the Role of the Magician?

- The Magician coerces and can be threatening or flattering depending on the

type of coercion

How Many things in the PGM operate on an unchangeable basis?

- Not just bringing yourself into alignment - but bring them into alignment

with you.

- Magic is a respons you can not explian the mechanism of (i.e., Alcehmy)

Is Alchemy Magic?

- Alcehmy is not Magic because of its technical qualities. It can not be

magic be beause of the scientifical expertise that are involved.

Can you have an aethistic magician?

The evidence does not permit us to answer many of the questions.

------------------

What is magic? What aspects are most important in defining it?

-Social Evaluation- how specific were laws against practicing magic?

A lot of social evaluation was based on misinterpretation and fear. If people feared or did not understand the actions of another person, they might

accuse the person of practicing magic. Ignorance seemed to play a big part in these accusations.

--Salem Witch Trials- Single women who owned land were accused of being witches. This is a classic example of people on top accusing other

people on top.

Accusing someone of practicing magic is much nicer than lynching them. The accuser looks good because he/she presents himself as someone who is

trying to save the town from harm.

--In many cases, the accusations were just generalizations. If someone witnessed another person doing something strange, but not necessarily

magical, they might accuse the person of being "the type that is capable of doing magic."

--If someone is acting in a strange manner, they can be accused of having an intent to harm. This is sort of like charging someone with magic before

it actually occurs. Ex. Socrates was accused of corrupting the youth. He wasnt directly hurting anyone, just leading the youth in the wrong direction.

What is it that gets some things judged as unacceptable?

-intent to harm

-forcing Gods

What is difference between magic and religion?

-Religion is asking the Gods for help, Magic is forcing

Some Gods are more powerful than others- is it harder to coerce the higher Gods?

Can Gods work against everything or is fate already decided?

Can a person be an atheistic magician since you need the consent of other powers for magic to work. Do you actually need the help from other powers,

or can you find it within yourself?

--------------------------------------------------

Friday 3-4

  1. Article: May indicate that there is a part of the brain that allows you to distinguish where you end and where universe begins
  2. - Part of brain shuts down during spiritual experience, possible biological reasoning for theurigical experience?

  3. Is it magic if we can produce a scientific explanation?

- Science does not always explain experience.

  1. What kinds of things are labeled purely as magical?
  1. Polythetic system of definitions
  1. Most important features of magic
  1. What is difference between mystery cult and magic?
  1. What is the difference between science and magic?
  1. What is considered a legitimate definition?
  1. What is the function of a self defined magician

Shows the relative importance of magician